Discuss

I am... I am almost too pissed to discuss what happened. 

I'm pissed to the extent that the Wolves never move up. They never make the sexy moves to go after the big name guys. They finally get one and they trade him away.

Generally speaking, I'm not one to feel that way. I would rather see them build a solid team, than make a singular sexy trade just to appease the fans. However, after watching the Celtics this year, it has become very apparent that you need to have 2 or 3 "superstar" caliber players to contend for, or win, a championship. We have one with Big Al, we could've had one with Mayo ...now we have Big Al.

 I'm not going to be a knee-jerk reactionist who flies off the handle. I'll wait to see how it all pans out, but I wanted to see us keep Mayo.

The one positive thing that I take from this is that I think it's pretty apparent they have no plans to trade either Foye or McCants. If they were trying to trade either of them, they would've held onto Mayo.

The jury is still out for me... but my initial reaction is that it's a complete letdown.
 

I am starting to settle down a bit, but I am extremely disappointed at what happened.  On the positive side it looks like Love was their guy all along, and at least they managed to get Mike Miller + Love.

 On the negative side, I really dislike Love.  And I really thought that Mayo was the no-brainer.  And I'm not a huge fan of Miller's game.  And now we both Madsen and Cardinal on the team.

 

The second round might even piss me off even more.  I have no thoughts, positive or negative, about the Euro.  I'll have to look into him more. Chalmers was a steal at #34.  To trade a guy like that for basically nothing really pisses me off.  And also, CDR, Jawai, and Deandre Jordan were ALL still available.  Argh...

 

I'm trying not to be knee-jerk, but the sad reality is that I don't think I really care about Wolves basketball anymore.  It's evident from the moves that they are making that they don't know what they are doing.
 

I'll be honest, I'm not really upset at all. The thing that pisses me off the most is all fo the people who rear their haead and claim that "I'm never watching this team again!" or "McHAle should be shot, I could run this franchise better!"

The only thing draftwise that irritates me is that they made the deal with Miami before they saw who fell to # 34. DeAndre Jordan or Chris Douglas Roberts would have been great value their. I don't think anyone can complain about taking Jordan and giving him some time, because rationale fans would understand that there is a reason he slipped and would consider his potential development a bonus if it happened, instead of an expectation. To me, that was the only really questionable thing of last night.

Listening to the experts talke about the guy we got at 31(I can't spell his name) makes me really like that pick, although I generally hate stashing Euros. It seems counter productive to the concept of building a team to have a guy that's not at least here everyday developing and playing with his teammates.

I would have liked Mayo, and I'm happy they took him not because I wanted him in a Wolves jersey, but it was the right pick. They did the right thing taking him, and I think a good deal came along to justify dealing him away. All I wanted in a trade for the # 3 was a legit player and a pick, and to me we got one of the five best shooters in the NBA and another post player ... and I would rather have a strong frontcourt than a glut of talented guards with only one ball. Our team became more well rounded. I agree with Chaos, it is less sexy, but I really can't complain as a Wolves fan, someone who's not a bit and someone who's not delusional.

I'm not pissed off that much. Why?

a) Mayo was unlikely to have stayed. He made that clear when he worked out for the big market teams and treated the others with picks in that range like second-class citizens. I'm not sure he brings anything more to the table than a rapidly improving Shad, either (except, perhaps, sanity?)

b) Love is a good player no matter how you slice it. A big, strong PF/C who is a good passer is going to take some of the load off Al's shoulders and find him (and our guards) more scoring opportunities. Is he a C? No, but so few teams use a true back-to-the-basket center it barely matters. Plus, he wants to be here - Mayo does not.

c) Mike Miller is the key to the trade - a high volume perimeter scorer who opens up things for Al. He's everything at SF that Brewer is not (and vice versa), and they should make a pretty good combo there. Plus, he's a Dakotan, used to the climate and the lifestyle, who could sign here long-term just to be close to his folks. (That assumption may not be tenable, but if you want someone who thinks Minneapolis is the Big City, go west to the land of Great Plains and Hardware Hanks.)

 d) Jaric is gone. The virtually untradeable, alchoholic, pouty  ****-bag who you never knew whether he was going to play decent or suck rocks and whose major claim to fame is punching Serbian team Igor Rakocevic in the middle of the world championships is somewhere else. Getting rid of Jaric 3 years before his contract is up makes this much more palatable. Adriana - come to your senses now! (And start answering my letters.)

e) Walker is gone. His chucking lost us as many games as it won us. Plus, he's Antoine Walker.

f) Keeping OJ Mayo would have almost certainly meant dealing Shad for pennies on the dollar. He's worth more than the market will give for him, IMHO, and another year of improvement (dare I hope for 20 ppg?) will prove it.

I am neutral on losing Buckner, who put in a good effort for a losing team but who clearly was nothing more than a spot-duty player. Jason Collins may or may not resume his career as a dependable defensive big man - it barely matters. Brian Cardinal was once a good player until injured.

I am pissed we traded Chalmers for picks, though. He seems like a capable cat. Pekovic will be a good pick if he ever comes over. Would rather have Chris Douglas-Roberts, though...

LabRat:

Pekovic will be a good pick if he ever comes over. Would rather have Chris Douglas-Roberts, though...

There were 3 other centers we could've taken who actually stand a chance of putting on a Wolves uni. And we could've sent them down to the D-League for the entire season to improve.

 If we wanted to use a roster spot for a d leaguer we could have yes. I wish they would change that rule. I wish teams could have a certain number of players developing in the d league without using up a roster spot for them.

I just can't get worked up about this. If I was a great collage basketball mind I might be able to but, I am not. Everything I have read or heard about Mayo screamed to me he would never have been happy here JMO. If that be the case Star or no Star it wouldn't matter because he would leave and we would be back to square one. Yes, we might have been able to trade him but, if everyone knew he wanted out we would have gotten squat for him.

People say that players will stay for the money. Some won't the Shaq's the Marbury's the Carter's they will not stay in a small market no matter what. So to my mind I would rather have a solid dependable guy that may not be sexy but wants to be here and will stay and build our team than 10 Sexy Stars that play for themselves and move on.

Detroit did it without Superstars they had solid great players that came together and built a great team. Look at how many teams have the Superstars and still don't get there. Having a Star is no guarantee we will be able to build a championship you all know that there are examples left and right of teams with great stars that don't even sniff the conference finals much less the trophy, somehow I guess having a star makes the near misses more palatable?

If we don't have a superstar but just solid, smart, fundamentally sound guys that come together all on the same page with one agenda to win, no ego's to cater to, no prima donna's to placate just a team full of great basketball players that want to bring us a banner, I am down with that. I don't need sexy, I don't need flash, I need great basketball played in Target Center and on the road. I need a team I can stand behind with no off court dramatics and locker room blowups.

I want great basketball in Minnesota again, I want a great team. Not a great star. 

 

cattsunn:

 If we wanted to use a roster spot for a d leaguer we could have yes. I wish they would change that rule. I wish teams could have a certain number of players developing in the d league without using up a roster spot for them.

Kevin McHale is on record as saying that he wants a 13 man active roster this year, with the other guys being in the D-League.

You guys are starting to calm me down, but I still really don't like Love.  I just see him as a liability on defense, which we cannot afford on this team, especially with the addition of Miller. 

MattyP:

You guys are starting to calm me down, but I still really don't like Love.  I just see him as a liability on defense, which we cannot afford on this team, especially with the addition of Miller. 

Yeah, I've really calmed down on this. I'm absolutely fine with it now. Again, it's a lot like the Foye/Roy trade to me; maybe Mayo will turn out to be the better player, but I love the fact that Love really wants to be here. He's genuinely excited to be here and to be able to work with McHale and Hoiberg.

As fun as it may have been to watch Mayo, that would've cut into both McCants and Foye's playing time and I am far from giving up on either of them yet.

I like Miller. Apparently he's excited to be here too, but I have to wonder how long he'll be here. Contending teams have been trying to get him for years. If that's the case, then I'm sure the right offer to a rebuilding team like the Wolves and he'll be gone. Imagine if a team like Phoenix, Lakers, etc, could get him. They might be willing to make a pretty sweet offer too.

All-in-all it seems that it was a pretty good trade. Just not the sexy move that we've all been yearning for. 

 I know a lot of people are tired of hearing the " he wants to be here" excuse, but I don't think they get how important that can be to chemistry. We have all seen the results of malcontents on our locker room it will be nice to see the opposite.

I've calmed down since then and came down to earth a little bit.  I'm not impressed with Kevin Love, I'm just a big hater of unathletic non-athletic white guys in the NBA.  We traded Chalmers away for pocket change and only got Mike Miller in addition to Love for Mayo.

 One thing I like here is that McCants will get legitimate playing time with Jaric gone.

 I guess I just think we could have gotten Beasley, I think we had what it took since Miami obviously wanted him.  Could it have taken that much?

 Viva la McCants
 

mamba81:

I've calmed down since then and came down to earth a little bit.  I'm not impressed with Kevin Love, I'm just a big hater of unathletic non-athletic white guys in the NBA.  We traded Chalmers away for pocket change and only got Mike Miller in addition to Love for Mayo.

 One thing I like here is that McCants will get legitimate playing time with Jaric gone.

 I guess I just think we could have gotten Beasley, I think we had what it took since Miami obviously wanted him.  Could it have taken that much?

 Viva la McCants
 

That "unathletic white guy" label is just a stereotype. He had better combine numbers than Al Horford had last year, and I don't think anyone would call him unathletic. In fact, many people thought he should have gotten rookie of the year. Here's how Love stacked up against this year's talent:

The combine numbers:

-Rose: 34.5 inch vertical w/ no step, 40 inch vertical max, 10 reps at 185 bench press, 11.69 second lane agility, 3.05 second 3/4 court sprint
-Beasley: 30 inch, 35 inch, 19 reps, 11.06 seconds, 3.24 seconds
-Mayo: 30.5 inch, 41.0 inch, 7 reps, 11.04 seconds, 3.14 seconds
-Brook Lopez: 27.5 inch, 30.5 inch, 7 reps, 12.77 seconds, 3.57 seconds
-Kevin Love: 29.5 inch, 35.0 inch, 18 reps, 11.17 seconds, 3.22 seconds
-DeAndre Jordan: 26.0 inch, 30.5 inch, 8 reps, 12.3 seconds, 3.27 seconds
-Darrell Arthur: 28.5 inch, 30.0 inch, 12 reps, 12.18 seconds, 3.14 seconds
-DJ Augustin: 28.5 inch, 35.0 inch, 2 reps, 11.27 seconds, 3.07 seconds
-Jerryd Bayless: 31.0 inch, 38.0 inch, 10 reps, 11.26 seconds, 3.07 seconds
-Westbrook: 30.0 inch, 36.5 inch, 12 reps, 10.98 seconds, 3.08 seconds
-Eric Gordon: 32.0 inch, 40.0 inch, 15 reps, 10.81 seconds, 3.01 seconds
-Anthony Randolph: 29.0 inch, 35.0 inch, 7 reps, 11.86 seconds, 3.26 seconds
-Donte Green: 27.5 inch, 31.5 inch, 2 reps (needs to get stronger), 11.21 seconds, 3.2 seconds
-JaVale McGee: 27.0 inch, 32.5 inch, 7 reps, 12.75 seconds, 3.25 seconds

Love beat 'uber-athletic bigs like McGee and D. Jordan in every category include speed and jumping. Heck, he is only .08 behind Mayo in the 3/4 court sprint beating Beasley and being the class among bigs drafted high.

IMO, if Love had a different ethnic heritage and was not a bit over his ideal weight last year that he would be looked at as an excellent athlete. Because he is one.

 Touche, I sit down in defeat to you good sir, because you have just nullified everything I had against Kevin Love.

 Love the argument, this makes me feel much better.

 Props.
 

Once you see how big a bust Mayo will be, you will be calling McHale brilliant for this move (okay maybe not brilliant due to prior history, but this particular move will go down as genius).

 

The kid was inconsistent in college, has his head more into the money rather than the game. Has bust written all over him.

 

Mike Miller is Mike Miller. Him alone probably warrants the 3rd overall pick in this draft. And KLove is a straight baller. He is fundamentally sound and highly intelligent. Good shooter, good rebounder, good passer, has a good handle, very charismatic and seems ready to handle the pressures of the NBA (probably the most NBA-ready than any rookie in this class with the exception of Rose IMO). Him alongside Jefferson will be a threat to reckon with in the future.

 

As somebody who lives in Southern California and sees both USC and UCLA on TV, I can honestly say that I think Kevin Love will be a better NBA player than OJ Mayo. 

I started to look at the stat based projections and was surprised to find Hollinger rate Love at #2 (behind Beasley).  (see: http://www.scoresreport.com/2008/06/24/john-hollinger%e2%80%99s-draft-rater-reveals-a-few-surprises/)

I know some of you don't put a ton of stock into his ratings, but he adjusts them every year to compensate for past ratings/performances.  And as far as I understand, they are based on several "key" categories that seem to predict NBA success: rebounding, steals, blocks, 3pt percentage, age, "pure-point" rating.  There is an explanation from last year here: http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72515

 
One of my favorite Wolves blogs, www.canishoopus.com (also very stat-geek based), is pimping the hell out of the trade.

Also many national media are reporting this as a "win" for the Wolves.

And if you look at next year's crop of guards, there should be someone there available for the Wolves to take:  Ricky Rubio, Tyreke Evans, Demar Derozan, Stephen Curry, or Nick Calathes.

 

I'm finally starting to come around ... 

Standinhg verticle 30.5 One step 34.5 Bench reps 4 lane agility 11.17 and sprint 3.18

So tell me since these numbers are so important is Love a better equal or worse athlete than this guy. No cheating looking to the bottom?

Why do I say this? Because these combines don't measure athletic ability. They can tell us about certain tests but I'n my opinion trying to say everyone labled Love an unatletic white guy is just a straw man. Trying to use the term white guy simply trys to disrtact from the fact they scouts like draft express have labled his lack of lateral quicks, ability to defend perimiter and his lack of explosive finishing ability around the rim are major issues.

His color isn't relevant to me. He could be purple for all I care. Name me examples in the last 10 years or so of guys like Love undersized PFs (make no mistake he measured less than 6 foot 8 and does not have a freak wingspan) who are not freak althletes, who cannot play SF that depend on strength at the NCaa level that have been consitent starters in the NBA let alone stars?

Like predraft numbers what about 12.9% that's his bodyfat %. 2nd worse among PFs and 4th worst in the entire camp. That's after working out after the NCAA season with a trainer . He also has bad knees.

Yeah he has a good feel for the game. But this talk of "he wants to be here" being so imporatnt is a total crock. I'm sure Brian Cardinal would really want to be here too. I know Jack Haley loved evey place he played. But especailly with todays contacts biased way towards teams and not players not taking a guy who you could get 3 great years out of and then trade but rather taking a guy who'll never amount to anything more than a role player at #5 makes no sense to me. The trade isn't too bad simply becuase I think Mike Miller is a pretty darn good player but I'm calling it now. Within 3 years Love will be considered a bust for his draft position either becuase he can't compete as a PF or becuase he becomes injuered with knee problems most likley. The %s of him succeeding are hugley against him.

See below.......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So did you peak? Those predraft numbers belong to Andre Igoudala. So is love an equal or better athlete to him?

I won't say he's more athletic than Iggy, but there is something to be said for big guys who are "unathletic" putting up athletic numbers at the combine. It isn't the be all end all to the debate, but it helps shed some light on what might be a misconception about the guy. As for his lack of lateral quicks, I don't need him to be able to move laterally more than 8 feet at a time considering where he is going to play, and I think he has proved that he moves just fine in small spaces such as in/across the lane. I don't expect him to be quick enough to guard a 3 on the wing.

Labrat is right, OJ would have pulled a Marbury, I have no doubt.

King Rube:

Labrat is right, OJ would have pulled a Marbury, I have no doubt.

What you mean he would play 3 years and then get traded for an All Star PG (Terell Brandon)  who averaged around 18 and 8 leading the Wolves to a 50 win season before getting hurt? Is that worse than have a backup forward with knee problems (Love)?

I don't get all this whining about Mayo leaving and Love wanting to stay. If you had the first pick and could have had Derrick Rose but he said he didn't want to stay with the Wolves long term would you trade the #1 for Kevin Love becuase he wants to be there?

You have an NBA rookie by the short and curlies for 4 years. You own their rights. You the team get to decide if they get traded or not. So what is the big deal about taking a player who may be good enough to attact enough interest to be able to bolt after 4 years? A guy like that can bring a lot back in a trade.

 

Pull a marbury HA. Would the Wolves ahve been better off trading the 4th pick in the draft for Antoine Walker or Simaki Walker and a "Mike Miller"?

If they wanted to trade down I think they'd be better off with DJ augastine, Brooke Lopez or Joe Alexander all of who I think will have better pro careers than love.

I don't get all the whining (such as you) about Mayo being gone.  He is gone and you NEED TO GET OVER IT!  If your life revolves around this, I feel sorry for your family, work, etc. because you clearly have your priorities screwed up.  Oh, and as you may recall, Brandon did little for this team except suck money out of Taylor's wallet for near non-service.  And where did we go with that 50-win season you mention?  Oh, that is right, a first round exit.